Curse

Gimme Money Plzkthx · Jan 05, 2007, 11:36 PM // 23:36

Congratulations, randomengy, you've agreed with us! If you list every build in 8v8, there are multiple builds that can counter it. This is why everyone wants 8v8 back, it makes the game GuildWars, not BuildWars.

Bacon Goes Monk · Jan 06, 2007, 12:06 AM // 00:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandomEngy

So reading this thread it looks like 75% is just saying "8v8 is awesome, 6v6 is boring" without bringing up any points.

I've only gleaned a few real arguments:

1) 8v8 is better because you have more skill combinations to work with.

What? So 10v10 is even better than 8v8, mathematically? This is just a terrible argument.

2) 8v8 is better because there is better competition.

So is the a problem with the 6v6 format? No, it's just with people stubbornly opposed to 6v6.

3) 8v8 is better because spikes work well.

That's a matter of opinion, but I guess if you just love spike-counterspike play you're going to like 8v8. Personally, I don't like it at all.

4) 8v8 is better because you have more viable builds.

Might seem true on the surface. But list me every viable build out there, and I'll tell you a different build that can (and does) beat all of them. This indicates to me that variety in 6v6 is far from tapped out. Give people a bit more time to figure it all out. Since the inception of 6v6, the number of commonly seen builds has been increasing. The same thing happened with 8v8; it started out with few viable builds (remember air spike?) then through a couple judicious skill changes (which we can expect soon for 6v6) we saw more variety.

So why do so many people want 8v8 back? I think it's just people who are sad their old builds don't work and aren't able to figure out a new build that works consistently in 6v6. My hope is that after the skill rebalancing people can try out HA again and just get over it.

We've already proven how 8v8 is better. I'll say it one more time.

1) 8v8 gives more room yes. That room is used to counter main fotm's, and still have a unique build. And where did 10v10 come from?

2) There was more competition. More builds = more variety = more competition = more fun.

3) Nothing wrong with well coordinated spikes.

4) What? 6v6 is rock paper sissors now. Play one fotm, you'll roll everything but another fotm

OR

You run a balanced, you can only fit in a few counters to the fotms, and you get rolled by a fotm you couldn't fit a counter in for. You just can't fit in counters with 6v6, which GUARNTEES you'll get steamrolled by a common build.

Also, I think we've given it enough time. Too much time, really.

tomcruisejr · Jan 06, 2007, 02:35 AM // 02:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bacon Goes Monk

We've already proven how 8v8 is better. I'll say it one more time.

1) 8v8 gives more room yes. That room is used to counter main fotm's, and still have a unique build. And where did 10v10 come from?

2) There was more competition. More builds = more variety = more competition = more fun.

3) Nothing wrong with well coordinated spikes.

4) What? 6v6 is rock paper sissors now. Play one fotm, you'll roll everything but another fotm

OR

You run a balanced, you can only fit in a few counters to the fotms, and you get rolled by a fotm you couldn't fit a counter in for. You just can't fit in counters with 6v6, which GUARNTEES you'll get steamrolled by a common build.

Also, I think we've given it enough time. Too much time, really.

No, I've already proven how 6vs6 is better by watching observer mode. I'll say it one more time even i said it million of times.

1) 6vs6 allows for more parties to be made.. simple math. 6 people party takes less time to form than 8 people party

2) There was more competition. too bad it was tainted by heroways. now that heroways were nerfed, More builds = more variety = more competition = more fun. no more "all i can see in HA are iways".

3) 6vs6 eliminated spike builds, builds with overloaded defense and 6 copies of 2-3 skills used for killing. we all know that HA spike builds are like heroways. you kill the caller, the team is done. spikes dont develop individual skill and spikes arent the way that gw is intended to be played.

4) rock paper scissors is a sign of balance too. no builds overpower every builds. no single build dominates. one cancels the other.

OR

why run a balanced 6vs6 build in an outpost meant for 8vs8 or i dont know.

yes i'm bored and moderators will delete my post again coz it ridicules the ideas of a pro 8vs8. moderators are pro 8vs8 too. FACT.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nurse With Wound

Conspiracy theory ftw. And of course we also fabricated the poll, and wrote all pro 8v8 posts under fake names. It was all secretly planned in some dark cellar with JR and DivineShadows.

i didnt say that. you said that.

2_fingers · Jan 06, 2007, 04:45 AM // 04:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

No, I've already proven how 6vs6 is better by watching observer mode. I'll say it one more time even i said it million of times.

1) 6vs6 allows for more parties to be made.. simple math. 6 people party takes less time to form than 8 people party

2) There was more competition. too bad it was tainted by heroways. now that heroways were nerfed, More builds = more variety = more competition = more fun. no more "all i can see in HA are iways".

3) 6vs6 eliminated spike builds, builds with overloaded defense and 6 copies of 2-3 skills used for killing. we all know that HA spike builds are like heroways. you kill the caller, the team is done. spikes dont develop individual skill and spikes arent the way that gw is intended to be played.

4) rock paper scissors is a sign of balance too. no builds overpower every builds. no single build dominates. one cancels the other.

OR

why run a balanced 6vs6 build in an outpost meant for 8vs8 or i dont know.

yes i'm bored and moderators will delete my post again coz it ridicules the ideas of a pro 8vs8. moderators are pro 8vs8 too. FACT.

i didnt say that. you said that.

1. Yes good that you can do math. But perhaps, there is more to the game play than just maths? While 6 v 6 means more teams are being formed, why is it we get more hall skips now than with 8 v 8?

2. Erm... ppl are still running the same builds they used to run with heroways. Sf ele. Sandstorm ele. Only difference instead of centaur u'd see the humans with just the same intelligence ^^

3. Agreed. 6v6 eliminated spike. But the downside is you get builds with ridiculous holding power. Paraway. Spirit way. and so forth. Even good ele/monk balls are holding as well. While low lvl spike is mindless to you, I believe u've not played in groups where there are 2 callers - one back up and one primary. While i hate spike, they do serve a purpose - they thin the ranks of super defensive builds that cannot counter the spike - making the HoH environment better.

4. rock paper scissors. If i really wanted to play that, i'd play tat with my 5 yr old brother. Seriously. logging onto a game to play for 30 min at a match only to rock paper scissors because there is no clear winner is a waste of time.

The only thing i'm gona say is this. I am willing to give anet the benefit of the doubt and see what they have instore. Considering that they have in the past done some decent stuff (though after alot of whining and bitching . i.e. ranger spirit spam), they may actually be able to fix it. If it doesnt work out, i'd not move over to chapter 4, and just go some other game. What's probably sad is that i know for a fact that from the people i've been speaking to, this feeling is shared by alot.

Perceptes · Jan 06, 2007, 09:42 AM // 09:42

Regarding the usefulness and reliability of poll results, it doesn't matter that people who don't know what they're voting on, don't take it seriously, etc. vote. Some basic understanding of statistics will tell you that the more people that vote, the more accurate the result is. Yes, a portion of the votes will be misinformed- that's why a poll is simply a generalized representation of popular opinion and not some sort of gospel. The more votes that come in, the closer the the end results will be to giving an accurate picture of how the majority feels on this party size issue.

On an unrelated note, I never played HA when it was 8v8 so I'm not going to vote, but from the other posts I've read, the pro-6v6 arguments tend to make sense whereas the argument for 8v8 is that "everyone wants it." Indeed it seems that people just want what they were used to and want to revitalize spike builds, which don't seem as interesting to me nor do they seem to involve as much talent and ingenuity in their design.

That said, I think what keeps HA from being really fun currently is the how there are only a handful of builds used and how many of them are designed primarily for altar holding, as that is the end goal in HoH. I think ANet is probably on the right track by adjusting victory conditions rather than giving two more players to each party. The necessity of being able to capture and hold and altar (as well as the obvious ease of use of certain skills over others) has more to do with the lack of creativity we're seeing these days than party size.

P

RandomEngy · Jan 06, 2007, 10:04 AM // 10:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bacon Goes Monk

We've already proven how 8v8 is better. I'll say it one more time.

1) 8v8 gives more room yes. That room is used to counter main fotm's, and still have a unique build. And where did 10v10 come from?

2) There was more competition. More builds = more variety = more competition = more fun.

3) Nothing wrong with well coordinated spikes.

4) What? 6v6 is rock paper sissors now. Play one fotm, you'll roll everything but another fotm

OR

You run a balanced, you can only fit in a few counters to the fotms, and you get rolled by a fotm you couldn't fit a counter in for. You just can't fit in counters with 6v6, which GUARNTEES you'll get steamrolled by a common build.

Also, I think we've given it enough time. Too much time, really.

No, you misread me. I meant I run one build that counters every FOTM. Not that I can pick any FOTM and make a counter. I don't have any trouble knocking spirit teams off of altars, either. Just go after them early, clear out the spirits, then spike down a healer or two and finish the ghostly. If the other team pitches in they're 100% guaranteed sunk. You don't always have to wait until 2:00 to do anything.

I will agree that you're at a significant disadvantage if you don't bring Divert Hexes, but then again I think that might be a product of the overpowered Spoil Victor and Reaper's Mark floating around. And you pretty much need a Grenth Dervish for hero takedowns but again this might be a balance issue with SoA and Avatar of Grenth. SOMW is probably the only real gimmick you have to build around, making sure you have Well of the Profane, a Grenth Dervish, Nature's Renewal or Gaze of Contempt to take them down effectively.

2_fingers · Jan 06, 2007, 10:53 AM // 10:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perceptes

On an unrelated note, I never played HA when it was 8v8 so I'm not going to vote, but from the other posts I've read, the pro-6v6 arguments tend to make sense whereas the argument for 8v8 is that "everyone wants it." Indeed it seems that people just want what they were used to and want to revitalize spike builds, which don't seem as interesting to me nor do they seem to involve as much talent and ingenuity in their design.

Here are some issues that cant really be disputed.
Back in the 8 v 8 days, there were always an abundance of players in the HA districts. That is, there were always at least 4 international, where ID1 and ID2 were usually over crowded and getting in would be a chore. Where did the players go when the 6 v 6 was implemented permenantly?

Some possiblities
1. Switch over to gvg
2. Switch over to pve
3. Switch over to another game

Bottomline tho, is that people have left HA because of the 6 v 6 change. I do not think any company with an economic goal in mind would like losing players. The argument that "everybody wants it" is valid - because if you consider the 8 v8 system, basically you are talking about taking a system that while there were a few whiners, the system did work, and was working pretty well.

Problem with HA is that it was designed for 8 rather than 6. Changing it to 6 means ur forcing people to refocus and possibly drop certain skills in favour of other. While you are being more selective of the skills you bring, what this means is that firstly, u may think of skills that cannot fully counter/work with the meta game. You would therefore run very similar builds to the another team because the central goal in HA right now is to kill off opponents, cap altar and hold it. With all the skips going on, u can be pretty sure u'd probabyl skip all the relic matches.

What is the solution therefore? Like Gaile says, changing the numbers wouldnt neccessary work - because u'd be basically going back to square one. (Which had its own set of problems)IF you wanna get more ppl to HA, you got to make it more friendly to a 6 man team. Have different objectives and goals instead of what we are having.

One thing that makes me cringe tho, is that the last time anet said it was gona make exciting changes to the maps of Ha, it removed a map and made BT a 3 man map. Its like, when everyone is crying for more variety of playing maps, they simply remove a perfectly decent one.

Gimme Money Plzkthx · Jan 06, 2007, 05:43 PM // 17:43

Hmmm, IMO, if they're going to make HA suitable for 6 man they're going to have to revamp every single map, objectives, victory conditions, etc.... and I mean REVAMP, like it might as well be a whole new arena. Now, after wasting a colossal amount of resources on revamping HA like this and (maybe) making it work... it'd still be no fun.

Bacon Goes Monk · Jan 07, 2007, 12:20 AM // 00:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

No, I've already proven how 6vs6 is better by watching observer mode. I'll say it one more time even i said it million of times.

1) 6vs6 allows for more parties to be made.. simple math. 6 people party takes less time to form than 8 people party

2) There was more competition. too bad it was tainted by heroways. now that heroways were nerfed, More builds = more variety = more competition = more fun. no more "all i can see in HA are iways".

3) 6vs6 eliminated spike builds, builds with overloaded defense and 6 copies of 2-3 skills used for killing. we all know that HA spike builds are like heroways. you kill the caller, the team is done. spikes dont develop individual skill and spikes arent the way that gw is intended to be played.

4) rock paper scissors is a sign of balance too. no builds overpower every builds. no single build dominates. one cancels the other.

OR

why run a balanced 6vs6 build in an outpost meant for 8vs8 or i dont know.

No wonder you want 6v6. You can't even understand simple common sense.

1. 6v6 takes less time? Sure it will. Too bad there aren't as many people left to make up for how many parties are actually made. Less people = less people...

2. More builds my ass. I can name 3. Zergway, Spirit spam, and 4 sandstormers. That's about it. Balanced isn't even worth running anymore. So we went from iway, spikes, balanced, shutdown, etc to zergway, spritspam, and sandstormers. So you're wrong.

3. 6v6 didn't eliminate spike builds. They can work for a little bit. But they're not worth running.

4. Rock paper sissors between 3 builds might seem to = balance. But is it actually fun that way? Unless all you used to run is iway, and now all you run is zergway, I guess so. Otherwise no.

Perceptes · Jan 07, 2007, 01:58 AM // 01:58

What I'm reading is that the reason to revert to 8v8 is that the majority of people want it, and that in order to satisfy their customers, ArenaNet should do what people want. I'm sure this is an over-simplification of the situation, but perhaps ArenaNet is more concerned with the integrity of the HA system and not just the approval ratings of the drooling masses. It still seems that what saps the fun from HA is the extreme lack of variety of builds being used. I really don't see how this is caused by party size as opposed to the victory conditions that necessitate such builds.

P

Randomway Ftw · Jan 07, 2007, 02:07 AM // 02:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perceptes

What I'm reading is that the reason to revert to 8v8 is that the majority of people want it, and that in order to satisfy their customers, ArenaNet should do what people want. I'm sure this is an over-simplification of the situation, but perhaps ArenaNet is more concerned with the integrity of the HA system and not just the approval ratings of the drooling masses. It still seems that what saps the fun from HA is the extreme lack of variety of builds being used. I really don't see how this is caused by party size as opposed to the victory conditions that necessitate such builds.

P

I wonder what is responsible for the lack of variety, 6v6 aka build wars, that forces you to play a fotm because you cannot include all the counters that you would be able to in 8v8. People will always play what is easy and/or familiar to them, get over it.

BlackEagle · Jan 07, 2007, 02:36 AM // 02:36

The argument that most people want it is the most valid argument here IMO. There are currently 8 (10 if you include zaishen + vault) maps in the HA list, how often does anyone play most of those maps before they get to HoH, even at prime time. To me, it is pointless playing 3 maps before getting to hoh, only to have to face the FOTM, with no hope of winning unless you are also running the FOTM. If 8v8 was reintroduced, it would mean (I'd hope at least) that many more players would return, which would return it to having some decent amount of games, with none ending in stalemate, and /roll 100 or rock, paper, scissors.

The argument of getting quicker teams is, as someone said above, untrue. By simple Maths, it should take you 3/4 of the time to make a party, as there is 3/4 of the amount of people. But, when there's only a third as many districts and players, that means you will have a harder time finding a team.

Having said that, I'm looking forward to seeing what new changes are introduced, because the win condition always being the same leads to stale builds. Though, I do believe that any change made needs to be of some consequence, as minor changes are unlikely to bring back many players.

JR · Jan 09, 2007, 08:32 AM // 08:32

Just posting this up here for my bro Tiyuri:

Quote:

[01:33] <[lvl200InternetPirate]Tiyuri> Hey Izzy, personal preference, which do you ENJOY playing more, 8v8 or 6v6 HA?
[01:33] <[Fi]Izzy|Work> 8v8
[01:34] <[Fi]Izzy|Work> 6v6 lacks the combo of offensse and defense and it's that fine balance that makes the combat fun IMO

Interesting, huh.

Divineshadows · Jan 09, 2007, 08:43 AM // 08:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Interesting, huh.

If this is true, then I can't wait as I have some ideas for builds in mind for HA in 8v8 format. Of course, my ideas will be wrecked by the upcoming skill balance...but hey a guy can dream can't he??

JR · Jan 09, 2007, 09:41 AM // 09:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

If this is true, then I can't wait as I have some ideas for builds in mind for HA in 8v8 format. Of course, my ideas will be wrecked by the upcoming skill balance...but hey a guy can dream can't he??

The skill balance and to an extent the mechanical changes coming, which may influence how you want to put a build together.

Lord Mendes · Jan 09, 2007, 12:08 PM // 12:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Interesting, huh.

Well any sensible person that has played both formats can agree with that.

tomcruisejr · Jan 09, 2007, 02:47 PM // 14:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

If this is true, then I can't wait as I have some ideas for builds in mind for HA in 8v8 format. Of course, my ideas will be wrecked by the upcoming skill balance...but hey a guy can dream can't he??

this is a very well thought response.

ToxicWasted · Jan 09, 2007, 03:29 PM // 15:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

this is a very well thought response.

And so is yours. You really seem to haven't visit HA at least 3 months. Spike builds eliminated? My Azz, there still are lots of SoMW (Specially when BenQ held for 2 hours people picked it up again), there is paragonway now and still the occassional Bspike / Rspike. No more builds with only 1 or 2 offensive skills and the rest filled with defensive stuff? *Cough, Ele Ball, Cough Paragonway?*
Please learn your facts before go into a forum shouting some nonsense.

The Silver Star · Jan 09, 2007, 03:44 PM // 15:44

Well i would like to know why Anet changed it to 6v6 in the first place, from what i gather they did it in response to the popularity of the 6v6 event. However i think they my have failed to realise the double fame factor in it. Even with the majority of people voting pro 8v8 i dont think Anet will change it back because it would show them up as maing a mistake, these new updates well "tests" that are comming up may be good however it sounds like a way to try and fix HA without recerting to 8v8 because Anet would have been wrong if they changed it back? Persoanlly if i was Anet i would of removed Heroes from HA and changed it back to 8v8 when i realised that it kept more people playing the game making my profit larger, anet dont seem to think this way.

<-- Leett orders z0mg

Mental Leteci · Jan 09, 2007, 06:17 PM // 18:17

They already said it's not just that weekend, they started to track HA way before which means that we were all wrong. Although I don't understand on what basis did they make this change. Number of players in the team can only nerf 8v8 Fotm's, but there are now 6v6 FotM's. So they actually replaced old with new ones and made HA less fun to everyone.